tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9784578.post1874190199975492086..comments2023-09-21T05:57:31.195-07:00Comments on The Beth Blog Ever: Rivers and snakesBethhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05311240865839334077noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9784578.post-42210784592409622582007-03-28T06:46:00.000-07:002007-03-28T06:46:00.000-07:00Amaris,Thanks for your thoughts, especially with H...Amaris,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your thoughts, especially with Holy Week coming. I look forward to seeing you when you come visit next week!Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05311240865839334077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9784578.post-32444017032817606392007-03-27T21:23:00.000-07:002007-03-27T21:23:00.000-07:00Oh, and I forgot to say that one of the things I h...Oh, and I forgot to say that one of the things I have learned this year is how when we refuse to acknowledge our own sin, we cut ourselves off from the gospel. That is, if I have no sin that needs forgiveness, I have no need of a gospel of grace. It is so simple, yet, in my habitual self-justification, so easy easy to fall into denying my own sin. That seemed to connect with your thoughts on acknowledging, truly and deeply acknowledging sin.Amarishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17863928338071826328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9784578.post-67201433086710614332007-03-27T21:14:00.000-07:002007-03-27T21:14:00.000-07:00Beth,Thanks for posting these thoughts. I thought...Beth,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for posting these thoughts. I thought the idea of Eve's sin being apathy, laziness, the ease of giving in rather than living out what it means to be human with all its privilege and responsibility was really striking.<BR/><BR/>The sins we do to avoid pain... In oh-so-many ways we break the two greatest commandments because love is painful. I don't stop to spend time with someone in need because it might cost me. I don't share the gospel truth when I should because of what someone might think of me. Love in those cases could be painful. Would that I - we - had the courage to bear that pain, we who follow the "man of sorrows, familiar with suffering." <BR/><BR/>You mention feeling that we as Protestants move too quickly from realization of sin to its forgiveness. For some time, I have felt the same way about Good Friday and Easter. We as Protestants miss out on what it really means that Jesus-God joins us in suffering. Dies. We know the end of the story and so we miss part of its meaning. <BR/><BR/>I am not sure but that the two are connected. Good Friday, after all, is the price for the sin we want to avoid thinking about. It is a reminder of the weakness and frailty behind the sin. And Easter is the victory, the forgiveness. We need both, yes, but we need BOTH. Some thoughts this Lenten season as we approach Holy Week.<BR/><BR/>AmarisAmarishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17863928338071826328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9784578.post-17982232806759360472007-03-16T08:29:00.000-07:002007-03-16T08:29:00.000-07:00Hey,I must say, I agree totally and completely. I...Hey,<BR/><BR/>I must say, I agree totally and completely. It's all about knowing ourselves and God, and, I suppose, knowing our Bibles, because that's where we find out who we are and who God is. I like how you put it, too, with "skimming the surface".Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05311240865839334077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9784578.post-11266784676362432682007-03-16T08:11:00.000-07:002007-03-16T08:11:00.000-07:00Here I am again.I can agree with Stott's point tha...Here I am again.<BR/><BR/>I can agree with Stott's point that we treat sin lightly, as mistakes, and that we may see God as easygoing. I wonder if that view is maybe a symptom of something bigger for us, of our society. Maybe as a people we've become too comfortable with skimming the surface of God (and the christian life), by accepting preliminary niceties (like not going to hell, having a group of friends who like us, going to church on Sunday)- and then we stop. So that we never dive in to who God says He is, which would include his intolerance of sin, among other things. I know that was a loaded sentence, but I won't unpack it here. And then we're also comfortable skimming the surface of ourselves. We know our likes and dislikes, and maybe that we keep getting stuck in the same rut or have a sin tendency, but we never face ourselves honestly enough to feel the weight and severity of our sin, and other things, maybe the weight of glory too. If we committed to knowing God for who he says he is, and knowing ourselves for who he says we are, would we still be so glib and complacent about sin? Could we avoid it even, if we knew let ourselves feel hopelessness until he came to give hope?<BR/><BR/>My other comment about taking the hard road by choice stems out of the above question of sin too. If we treat sin lightly, and only see it as something to be eradicated, then we never admit or face the deep hurts and desires that lie beneath our sin. We spend time trying to stop sinning or change our behavior without ever voicing the longings underneath. And if we don't face ourselves either, we'll never admit that we need a deep remedy for sin, someone to accept our longing and offer a way out.christinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13765335903804902323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9784578.post-91516081447695531602007-03-15T16:54:00.000-07:002007-03-15T16:54:00.000-07:00Hey Chris,Thanks for entering the discussion on si...Hey Chris,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for entering the discussion on sin and the cross, and pressing me on some of the things I wrote.<BR/><BR/>I didn't mean to give the impression that Stott's book was all about the cross eradicating sin. This was only the topic of one chapter out of fifteen, but it happened to be one that spoke to me. I'll have to check out Piper's book, too - sounds good!<BR/><BR/>I agree that discovering the severity and rootedness of sin is a slow process, and not something we can just glibly remind ourselves of. I think Stott's point is that we often downplay sin today, treating sins as "mistakes" or "sicknesses" or even "the way I am", and we tend to enjoy transferring blame. We sometimes picturing an easygoing God who tolerates our slip-ups. The realization that God is actually holy, a bright light, a consuming fire, who cannot tolerate the presence of sin - this is something Stott says we have to return to. Yes, this realization leads to healing and restoration, but I think Stott would argue that in the Protestant church today, we rush too quickly to this stage without letting the depth of our need "sink in". As long as we're not wallowing hopelessly in guilt, I think reminding ourselves of the depth of our sin and the holiness of God is a healthy thing, and something maybe the Catholics have understood better than us.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate you pointing out another way we all suffer as Christians - in vulnerable love. And I also agree that like you say, sin isn't the avoidance of pain, it never actually succeeds in avoiding it, only in relieving it for a short time, since God is the one thing that can satisfy our deep hurts and desires. And I don't mean to imply that "taking the hard road" is something we do ourselves, easily - you're right, it comes out of being held in Christ's love and redeemed, especially in times of deep hurt. But we have to <I>want</I> to be redeemed, held and touched - God doesn't force this on us - this is what I'm talking about with the "defiance". We have to turn from the option of easy short-term relief, realizing that it won't satisfy. This brings us to the place of brokenness where Christ can sanctify and heal us. And it's this "wanting to" that this view of suffering instead of sin helps me with.<BR/><BR/>p.s. Man, good stuff! Carey won't be disappointed.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05311240865839334077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9784578.post-21341043151010317232007-03-15T15:30:00.000-07:002007-03-15T15:30:00.000-07:00John Piper's book "The Passion of Jesus Christ" is...John Piper's book "The Passion of Jesus Christ" is also very moving; it gives 50 reasons why Jesus came to die. The focus isn't only on overcoming sin, but on many other aspects of abundant life that is offered at the cross. I like that it focuses on healing and redemption and not only on eradicating sin.<BR/><BR/>On the idea of Stott's book: I wonder how to approach coming to the realization that sin is such a big deal. I'm beginning to think that it's a slow process, as we discover the depth and rootedness of sin in terms of how it separates us from God and tempts us to settle for less. I can see that forgiveness and love would be a treasure in the face of sin that is that deep. For me, seeing my deeply rooted sin has come hand in hand with healing and restoration, as opposed to trying to convince myself that sin is bad or remind myself of how sinful I am.<BR/><BR/>In terms of being 'unpersecuted', we may not be in physical danger, but I would think that there is still some suffering for those who follow Jesus, maybe a different kind of suffering. Say, suffering that comes from loving a family member in vulnerability who continues to be hurtful. And we may still suffer in the process of sanctification- but could it be that sometimes sin is not the avoidance of pain, but a short term relief from pain? I think that for some, sin is committed not in emotionally distanced apathy or pain avoidance, but in an emotional, desperate cry for something deeper. In that case, choosing to suffer, be sanctified and 'take the hard road" seems a bit more challenging, a bit more out of reach. For in that place, being sanctified means first being touched deeply, being held in love, being healed by Jesus' wounds and then being redeemed.christinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13765335903804902323noreply@blogger.com